I cried today over something...over nothing...over something that mattered once upon a time. I chose carefully not to sit directly across from him. She chose to sit across. I don't view her a threat because no one ever is and truthfully, I don't want him anymore. He jokingly quipped to her that if she were part American Indian, he'd marry her tomorrow...and then he looked at me.
He expected a reaction; there was none. Perhaps he thought that there was still love; there is not. But what I have is the sadness that he wasn't the one. I spent eight years of my life in love with him. It isn't the sadness of the memories of how much I wished that it were forever...but more the sadness of the memories of the moments when I knew that it wasn't.
In fact I haven't forgotten any of the details at all. Time doesn't heal those wounds. And when I think that I'm OK; that it IS OK, I watch a shift in his body language or his interest in another woman even if it is just a momentary joke. I know him well enough to know that is the beginning of a peaked interest. I don't care really because when it comes down to it, I wouldn't say yes to him today anyway..but it's been a lot of years, and the pain of him doesn't go away just when I think that it did.
I read the psychology today article on highly sensitive individuals today. I didn't learn anything that I didn't know; that I didn't feel through the every day torment of being one. It's on 'system overload' all day, every day and no amount of quiet is quiet enough to satiate and bring back a balance in that equilibrium of being able to feel rested and ready to move forward without the clutter of the outside world. Case and point: last summer, someone who doesn't live on my street but the next street over decided that he likes parking his corvette here instead of there...and his favorite thing to do with car is to rev up the engine...so he does. He lets it idle inordinate amounts of time before and after he shuts off the engine...it disturbs my quiet...it pisses me off. He doesn't belong here...go away...today...and don't come back....but he did...after being gone all winter, two days ago. So once again, when it's warm enough to want to open my windows and have soft breeze wafting though, I'm woken up by the external noise and my day is filled with ruminating anger...you don't belong here and I don't want to be disturbed...ever.
But, he bought me dinner last Monday night; I had a kiss hello on the lips. I wiped my lip gloss off of him with my thumb...he started this morning enthusiastically happy to see me; I turned my back toward him as I passed; I sat catty cornered to him. It's good to see him; it's good to be in his company. Every part of him is like coming home but I can't forget those moments of pain and when I try for just a moment I remember that I can't let myself be vulnerable to him, so I give every outward appearance of being neutral...Cathy told me that she thought he was playing games with me; I don't believe that he is; but he looked for a reaction so I have to wonder if he was afraid of further hurting me...I don't think that's possible. He's the one hurt that I've never gotten past. There is no anger; and there's no romantic love it's just a wound that never heals...
He tried on Saturday in quiet conversation selling me on his lesser qualities ; how he's always a mess, he's a weird guy; he didn't have to. It's not the way that it was; I haven't forgotten a moment of it. It's hard to be with him; but yes, I'll see him tomorrow night.
It's been a long time since I've used my name.com and over the last few days began to wonder if I should be blogging there instead of here...I'm still deciding whether to or not, so if you don't find me here, you certainly can there.
I wrote an introduction there that I thought I might use here as a blog. My characters here are limited and I always have more to say than that. It comes under the heading of why I do what I do...here's your share...
'Where does one begin to take a journey of a lifetime of steps...except at the beginning.
When I was about ten years old my mother began giving me what I always called 'lessons in womanhood'. But time and space left many unanswered questions; most of which became confused by gender roles, expectations unmet and generally leaving me to question what it was ultimately lacking in why I wasn't happy in my interpersonal relationships. Why was it that the men who asked me to marry them didn't feel like 'forever'? I've written so often that all that I had ever wanted was 'one guy; one time' and it's be as elusive a dream as it always has been.
A few years ago, I came across someone who had spoken highly of Dr. Pat Allen. After reading her first book 'Getting To I Do', I realized that she was absolutely correct. Her work, to me, was like coming home to a place inside of me that I had once known when the world was simpler and filled with a lightness and joy. Before a time when the societal outside world told both men and women that they were 'wrong' in their understanding of how to 'handle' their relationships. What I realized is how much I was missing the masculine and feminine tradtional roles, and how much happier I was as I woman when I was treated that way. In fact what I realized was that the more masculine a man is, the more feminine I feel in his presence; and how very much I want more of it. That I want to turn my sails into his wind and have him take me on a journey that I would not have had had it not been for his lead and direction.
For many years, I mentored in the real estate field; but I was selective. Anyone who approached me and asked me to mentor them needed to give me a big enough reason 'why' or I wouldn't give of my time...for example the electrician who fell off of scafolding and tried to grab it stop himself from falling. After several surgeries and a year, he still couldn't work but had a family who depended on his income.
When I chose to mentor, I did it for two reasons. The first was that had it not been for those who gave unselfishly of their time when I needed it, I would not be where I am today. In fact, I can say of my first real estate mentor, that EVERYTHING that I am, is because of him. That love remains for him unending. The same goes for my second mentor who spent 8 hours per day standing in front a room teaching, but spent that 8 hours looking into my face as if I were the only one sitting in that room. He once sent me an email saying 'you have learned well' and I hold that moment of pride in my heart. So my reason for sharing what I've learned here brings me back full circle to the cusp of my begining. I choose to give as a part of my legacy what will be inherited from me to my collective daughters who sit have and continue to sit here at my knee; real lessons in womanhood.'
I said that I'd write about it and so tonight it seems appropriate. It was 46 minute ago, exactly. It's not a missed connection, it's that always, always, always we both just KNOW. I feel him reaching out to me; we miss each other by moments, or by hours, it's never more than 24. It was 46 minutes ago that he looked at my profile. It's his way of telling me that he's thinking about me...
The first time it happened that I can recall, I was in 7th grade. Something inside of me kept telling me to be careful or I would get hit by a car all night long...I did--just a block from home...but I knew for hours that it would happen.
We all have it in the family. My mother once woke up my father telling him that she had just had a bad dream that his cousin's house was on fire and as she was telling him, the phone rang...it was his cousin--and the house was up in flames.
There was the time that my father needed to go somewhere on business and was taking the company car. As he got out to the parking lot, he walked back into his office and took his keys. Instead of going where he needed to, he drove past our house and saw my mother outside. He asked what was wrong; she had locked herself out.
My brother's have it as well...but these are my stories. I guess what surprises me is the 'one of a kind' experiences. There was Phyllis--and she's the only person that I've ever met that I had this experience with. I would look at her and see a white glow around her...like a halo but it was not only her head, but her body. I used to call her 'the woman of the white light'. She would ask me to describe it to her and I said it was like a holiness--like if you saw Jesus walking down the street, you would expect a glow. After a couple of years, I told her that I didn't see the halo anymore...she waited a few years after that to tell me that she had lost her virginity--and that was the only thing she could think of. I didn't have a sense of that was the reason, but I've never had that experience with anyone else.
And then there was Lee. When I met him he was laughing and clowning around with a bunch of guys and I don't remember anything about that conversation accept him saying 'I'm always like this'. I couldn't stop thinking about him and after a few weeks, I realized what it was...although he appeared to be perfectly happy, that there was a depressive episode--he was either in the middle of it or it was coming...and I was supposed to save his life. I've saved a life before, but never felt with anyone else that I was supposed to. It took about two years before his melt down; I didn't save his life; he wouldn't let me in...
Kathy and I talked a lot this week about moving from relationships when you're supposed to. I believe that it time that she ended her marriage. I told her a story about a girl who lived down the block from me when we were growing up. A few times per year, I get together with my grammar school friends, we head out to dinner and pick back up where we left off as if one moment of time hasn't gone by. So on occasion, I still see her. Her mother died a few years back and I went to the funeral. I said hello to her much older brother Paul who couldn't put my name to my face but told me that he kept thinking that he knew my eyes. I have an aunt with dementia--she stares at my eyes, too. She knows that she knows them; they're her eyes. None of her children or grandchildren have her green-gray eyes; I did. In some ways, I am her kindred spirit. She was in the hospital with me when I spoke to the doctors out in the hall when my father was dying. I told them about his medications--what he was taking; how often and dosages. I talked to them about his testing, what he should or shouldn't be taking before and after anesthesia and she looked at me in awe and said 'you know everything'. She had been a nurse in Israel and there is an expression in Jewish that I'm not sure will translate well, but in essence, it means beaming with pride at the growth and knowledge of a young person before you. Her kids and grandchildren didn't give that to her either. She used to always say that I was her favorite neice. To be fair, I was her only neice; but that remained with a wink, just between us.
Paul told me a story of how he had come home and come home to a church around the corner. His newly found faith has sustained him when his wife left him after years of living in the middle of no where and doing lots of drugs. He lamented at the end of that relationship and I smiled at him. I told him that I knew something that he didn't--that she had to go. God had to remove that obstacle in order for him to find his way back to the spirit that sustains him. He hugged me for the moment of clarity.
I think about those moments of serendipity when the matrix lines intersect and why it is that Joshua's never here and he's never gone...it's some great siren's song that pulls at me and doesn't let go like some secreted unfulfilled date with destiny...tonight, I'm directionless and adrift...
It's definitely still a risk for me to be with him exclusively until this ring thing happens, but at this point yes I will just follow his lead instead of forcing the issue. Although it's still only words, and he said a lot of them early on in our relationship as well, I do think the time apart helped him be more decisive in moving forward. I don't know what more I could ask for at this point. (**not that I would ask him of course)
You know how people always say it's better for the man to love the woman just a little bit more? That never sat right with me but I kind of understand it now... he seems to feel so lucky to be with me (which in turn makes me feel secure). He said something about me being the girl of his dreams, that I was exactly the kind of woman he imagined being with as a wife when he was little.
So I'm just going to be surrendered about it all now... that's how I feel when I'm with him anyway - all my (internal) attempts to control situations fly out the window. (it's only when I'm alone that I get my nose out of joint on the little things!!)
Thank you for the suggestions re: not rocking the boat yet, and also being respectful of his work commitments. I will remind myself to cut him some slack. He did say he was going to be working for me and "our family" anyway - LOL! I'd rather a partner who worked hard to provide even if it's long hours than someone less ambitious with more time on their hands, who I wouldn't respect as much.
I must admit I feel vastly unprepared for all of these adult discussions and decisions re: rings and weddings and houses. Even though he's so much younger I feel like he's way more mature and responsible.
Oh and speaking of age... I guess this would be the time to talk to him about that, yes? And my health history? I don't think it will matter to him if he's as deep in as he says he is... but I don't want him to think less of me for keeping it from him. I'm kind of terrified at breaking that news though - 8 years is SUCH a huge age difference, it will blow his mind.
It's funny that you brought this up, M., because I thought about this today and wondered if it would be a mistake at this juncture to talk to him about your age and your past illness...and I think that it is. By the way, it's something that I don't talk about much; but I do sort of have this psychic thing that I must have picked up on before I read this from you...(it runs in the family...but I guess I'll blog about that some other time...it is suffice to say that that first time I noticed it, I was 12 and it's never gone away...)
But back to you; I think that for now, I'd hold off on telling him--and let his love for you grow deeper. Right now, I think he's as far into this as he is out--and I wouldn't be doing telling him--yet. Wome people wait until afer marriage to bring this kind of thing up...as for myself, I would probably tell before the marriage; but this is up to you. For example, my cousin husband didn't tell her that he had mitro valve until after the wedding.
I've often heard men say that they met a woman that they liked and once the 'xyz' on her resume popped up, they left the woman instead of marrying them--and they added that if she would have told them later, it wouldn't have mattered as much. It is the truth; but it's also taking a risk that he might walk away with new information about who you are.
I did want to mention to you that you did do something that unwittingly worked to your advantage--and that was that J. saw you out dating another guy. He IS afraid of someone else snatching you up before he does....
Go with the flow for now--go ring shopping and neighborhood shopping. If you don't want to tell him exactly the ring that you prefer you can always say white or yellow gold/platinum...that depends on you. would you rather pick it or let him choose and have it be a surprise? I'm picky and I would hate to wear a ring that I didn't LOVE for the rest of my life...
It's interesting because my girlfriend Kathy and I were talking a couple of days ago and she asked me if over time, I had bought things like furniture or china patterns and my taste had changed and I didn't like them anymore. I told her that I didn't...for the most part, everything that I love, I've loved since I was a little girl.
I still have the same traditional cherry and mahogany furniture that I picked out when I was in my 20's and I still love it just as much. The mistakes that I made in choosing certain china patterns and stemware were in that I chose patterns that become discontinued. I've recommend to my young cousins and young girls that I mentor to pick a plain 'wedding band' style of china from lenox and a traditional pattern of glassware from waterford, so that even if you break a piece and it can't be replaced, you can always find something else that matches or blends seamlessly.
One more bit of advice that has always worked for women that I know...when they get the ring, to say that it was more beautiful than she could have imagined...and then was honored to wear it, but that this ring is yours and could have it back whenever you want...
(I don't know a man who would dream of asking for it back after your being perfectly willing to let him have it!)
It's sort of a throw back to when a man gave a girl HIS ring, HIS pin or HIS letterman jacket...and I love that...
I know that you have two dates set up and you're wondering what to do about them since you feel silly telling these men that when they had contacted you, that you and J. had broken up and that now the two of you are back together...so I'm going to volley this back to you. What do you want to do? Just a couple of days ago you were telling me that you were angry that you weren't dating others when J. asked you for what you felt was premature monogamy. A date doesn't have to mean anything more than just spending a couple of hours over a meal with someone new.
Ay ya yie. The good, the bad and the ugly. OK the bad and the ugly are the same thing...but I'll get there.
Everyone knows that I'm a sucker for reality T.V.--not all of it, but a lot. Last night bravo had me hooked in just enough to watch.,...my people...sort of. Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews are so far removed from each other that we practically are a different religion. Or let me rephrase that to say that culturally, we practice the faith differently. We have different ceremonies, different foods as 'holiday' foods, name our children differently and other thing distinct differences. But the commonalities of the men and women that I knew in my twenties and thirties strikes a chord. Life was all about perfection. Who had the most money and toys that the money bought. If you weren't wearing the designer everything from head to toe, you were just pitifully, children of a lesser God. And I so much related because I was one of them. There was nothing that I wanted that money wasn't an object. It was a matter of course to go shopping, walk up to the register without ever looking at a price tag and buying whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted. Shopping was my sport of choice--right after taking care of myself; in fact that was my job requirement. Yes, I said that. *IF* I didn't take care of my self obsessively, I wouldn't find a man that would do the same for me. So yes, that meant that I took a food scale with me into restaurants, yes, I weighed and measured everything I ate. Yes, when I went on vacation I was getting up every single day to exercise, yes, nothing interfered with my diet and exercise schedule, yes, as my girlfriend Linda used to call it "I was busy doing nothing"...except being beautiful. That meant standing appointments for massages, manicures, pedicures, facials, waxing and hair.
And yes, that meant that my constant purchasing of jewelry, purses and shoes each would cost more than a month's rent--and so did my beauty regiment--I love(d) being pampered; I didn't care. Today, I would still love to go back in time and be that woman--again...but my priorities have changed. Being knocked about in life changes your perspective of importance...but it was a beautiful time and I'm privileged to have those memories. Fine wine, fine dining, and very fine men. My best friend at that time was an Italian girl named Karyn who wanted nothing more than to marry a Jewish guy...she would have converted in a heartbeat. But there is something about conversion that doesn't translate in what it means to be a Jew. I've always said that marrying a Jewish man is easier. There is a basic level of understanding that I don't have to explain...and see above for all of that. I wouldn't have to explain all of the beauty maintenance; I wouldn't have to explain the domestic help...they understand because their mothers had help as well as their cousins, grandmothers, aunts and every woman that they 'watched' growing up as 'that's what's done' in a woman's life.
It always surprises me that a mere hundred years ago one out of every five women in America had full time domestic help. Men did what they had to do to provide that for the women that they loved. A woman didn't have to have a break down over what she could and couldn't do all in a day's work. And that means that no, she can't go to work, come home take care of the house, the kids, cook, clean and otherwise be a slave to her life while all the time her husband is wondering where his sex kitten is...add that to the list. Having her burden lifted removes the strain of not giving enough attention to any one thing on 'the list'. We've been lied to; we can't have it all.
MJ has problems with her mother...she's far too enmeshed in her mother's life and it hurts her--she's going to need some therapy to straighten her head and her mother out...but it's GG that I want to talk about.
It's obvious to everyone including Mike that she's in love with him but she's doing everything wrong that possibly could--and most of all, she doesn't LISTEN to him. I'm a big believer that if you listen to a man, he'll tell you far more about him that you would ever learn by asking him questions.
So here's what we know about Mike:
1. He said that if he found a nice girl, he'd settle down tomorrow. I believe part of that. Right now he's having lots of fun--and read that as lots of free sex with lots of woman. GG gets her claws out by being a bitch about the woman that he's with...She has a great body; GG complains that she's not dressed appropriately for a house party--Mike hears about it and calls her out on it. Would she have kept her ladylike behavior and NOT been affected; Mike would have taken notice of her lack of attention and began to step toward her; not away.
2. He's willing to laugh about GG and her pseudo hotness. She shows up at the firing range. Perfectly willing to compete with him (sorry, he's no man wants a woman to compete with him). When she dresses inappropriately for shooting practice she complains that she's being burned by spent shells. He says that he dated her sister but doesn't even really remember her. That should send up '"ewww; that's creepy" red flags...but GG is a competitor--it's just misguided.
3. See number 1 again. He says he's a mama's boy...mama calls him at work to remind him that they are having dinner together as a family on Friday night. He tells her that he loves her. If she wanted to win his heart, making dinner for him at home might be a start. Sharing her family get together's with him is the second place to go--being with his family means alot to him. A man has to both see how you fit into his life and how he will or won't fit into yours. Family is obviously an important part of his life, or he wouldn't have showed up on all so important --singles night out--Friday.
4. Her mouth...what man wants a street swearing piece of trash to take home to his family? Yes, there is a double standard. OK for men; not OK for women. For all of her money and daddy bankrolling her life (read that as an entitled, childish pain in the neck to live with) what she didn't learn was the most important thing and that is how to be a lady. Nope, money can't buy you class...step up to that.
Hi Fran: just got off the phone with J. My goodness men DO have a 6th sense about other men sniffy around . Literally 30 mins before that I got a text from the firefighter Phillip I met last night asking me out. And of course still have the date scheduled on Sunday with Paul.
Anyway, he said he missed me, that he knows he screwed up, that he knows he wants to be with me and wants to marry me and is going to do "whatever it takes." I let him lead the conversation completely so there were a few long silences.
Perfect M.! You have to let a man say what he says, go back for another dip into his well of feelings, and come back up with more... I'm proud of you.
He said he was scared to call me because of how he acted like a jerk because of his 'fears' or something... all I basically said in response was that I missed him too, that it was nice to hear from him and that yes he had hurt my feelings.
He wanted to come over tonight (at 10 pm - as if!) - said he just wanted to "hold me" not have sex but I said no of course. So he said he's calling me first thing in the morning.
So... I feel happy that he resurfaced, but sort of sad at the same time because I am unsure of what to do next. I'm still upset that he put me through this and now I don't know what I want to negotiate with him.
Oh and he alluded to other guys but I dodged the question. What do I do about that - lie and say I didn't meet anyone? Cancel the dates?
Honestly, he hurt me so much by withdrawing that I'm confused about exclusivity now. I don't want to go through an 8ww again with him... HELP! I need to know what to say when we meet (maybe tomorrow). Thanks in advance xoxo.
M.--now it comes down to how do you FEEL?
Are you ready once again to go exclusive? are you ready to be exclusive without an engagement ring? are you going to ask for more time to become exclusive so that you can sort out your feelings while he rebuilds a trust worthy track record? are you going to say to him that you don't feel safe going off of the market without an engagement ring? Are you so hurt that you want to go on the other dates for a comparison?
*IF* you're asking me my opinion, I would be very clear that it is your deepest desire to be a wife and mother and if he can't give that to you, that you need to find a man who will fulfill those dreams. I would tell him that you don't feel safe going off of the market without a ring and that you're not pushing him; but you are going to continue to date other men until one of them proposes with an engagement ring. THEN you'll know if he wants to marry you or not. I tell women all of the time that an engagement ring only means that you may not get married; but it will be an indication that he means the commitment that he's offering you right now. An engagement means that you're ready to explore whether or not to spend your lives together as a step up from dating--but you're not married, yet. Be very cautious about behaving like a wife if you're not one.
Hi Fran, Actually, as of right now I have nothing to report. He didn't call me yesterday morning like he said he would (ok whatever; I let it go) and then around 11pm I got a phone call from the concierge in my building. I didn't pick up... I never answer my phone that late. Joe texted 2 mins later that he had stopped by with a gift for me but that I wasn't at home. Ugh - 11pm?? What the heck?
Anyway, I debated whether or not to respond to the text since I'd already expressed my feelings about that to him, but when I didn't hear from him by 2 pm I decided fine, I will write back. So I said - "That's sweet :) sorry I missed you". He writes back "Were you on a date?"
I haven't responded. I don't even know what to say to that. I'm so disappointed in him. His words (that he misses me, wants to be with me, will do "whatever it takes") do not match his actions. I would have thought he'd be trying to find time to see me this weekend instead of showing up unannounced at 11p.m., and now asking about other guys. Why doesn't he want to SEE ME?!? Am I overreacting? I don't know why he's being like this - this is not how I envisioned him coming out of the "cave." Part of me feels like maybe he should have stayed there.
Wow--I'm not sure of what's going on with him except maybe he's still overwhelmed with work...
I usually let guys know that I'm on a 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. schedule and they are welcome to contact me during those 12 hours...if you haven't told him that you have a time boundary, you can't expect him to know.
I would be honest in telling him that you weren't expecting company that late and just presumed that the conceirge dialed a wrong number and of course, you weren't on a date.
You have to know M., that you can't ask for 'soul gifts' from him. you can't ask for more, better, different, time, sex, love or affection. Either you're going to accept what he offers you, or reject it. he did make two attempts to see you this weekend--one to hold you, one to gift toyou...they weren't the gifts from him that you wanted; but you don't get to orchestrate the relationship. Either you want this to continue forward or not...you get to decide; but you don't get to be pissy over what you feel is his lack of attention.
I don't think I ever told him a specific time boundary, but I just feel like it's a common courtesy thing, don't you? He's never initiated contact that late before. He is also a grown man and most people are aware that you don't show up unannounced at 11pm at night. Or (on the night before) ask to come over at 10 pm when you've been bloody MIA for 3 weeks. Especially since I'd already been upset over the whole 'booty call' thing before. It just doesn't make me feel very special.
However, no, I would never tell him that or ask for more/better/different. Just to clarify, I'm not going to get pissy with him - I'm pissy here with you because I need to vent and sort out how I feel :(
I wasn't going to respond to the text about whether I was on a date, but I just did - I said no of course not. I don't want to communicate by text and I don't think I can be exclusive with him if I'm going to feel like this... however that's a discussion we would have to have in person.
I can only conclude that this was just him "peeking out" of the cave to check that I'm still here, but he's not done his processing yet. I feel like he's letting his insecurities take over. He's obsessed with me not seeing other people yet he's not standing up to the plate himself. I don't know what I'm supposed to do in the meantime... I feel horrible.
M., masculine men are busy building empires and fit in dates whenever they can. *I* think that it's common courtesy not to show up at 11--on the other hand, it might have been a lovely surprise to have a gift and your guy show up at 11 unannounced. His not 'calling first thing' as he said, is a different story.... and I don't like the deriliction; but you can't ask him why he didn't call; whatever it was, he had a reason. Asking him why and expecting a response turns you into his mother, not his lover. If late in the evening is an issue, you're going to have to tell him your reasons...i.e. that you are typically in bed by ten thirty and off to sleep or you can't concentrate at work the next day....
I don't believe that he's peeking out--he told you that you're the woman that he wants to spend the rest of his life with; the two of you just have a disconnect between relationship styles. To him, you're there, ready and waiting; in your head, you're still wanting him to continue to pursue... the two of you definately need a discussion about your feelings and what he thinks...
Hi Fran, So here is my report on last night. You were right - he wasn't just peeking out of the cave. Apparently while we were apart he has decided this is it... whereas I had been trying to emotionally detach myself. So it was a lot to digest and quite emotionally overwhelming.
He gave me a big long speech about all the qualities he loves about me, what a great wife and mother I will make, how chemistry like ours doesn't come around often and that he's never felt this way in his life.
He said how much thinking he had done while we were apart, how much he missed me, that he needed to know for sure that he wanted to be with me, and now that he knew he was never going to mess things up again. Apparently he was pseudo-set up with a couple of other girls in group date settings and that too made him realize how special our connection is (I wasn't too happy about this but he said he never kissed or had sex with them). Also the fact that I didn't bite his head off when he first called on Friday night... he said most girls would have and he knew I must care about him when I didn't.
Please note the lesson. I stress this all of the time. THIS is 'receptive' at it's purest; when you don't want to be, you still listen to a man with an open heart; not because you really want to, but because what you get at the end was worth doing so.
So he formally, seriously said he loved me several times and that he wanted to just "get this done" - engagement, marriage, etc. Asked what kind of ring I want, did I know my ring size and do I have a friend who could help him pick something I like. (I'm not quite clear on whether the gift was some kind of promise ring - he said he wished he'd brought it with him but I didn't ask for details.)
Anyway, it was so much to digest and I ended up crying at one point, so I don't think I ended up saying anything I had planned to, other than sharing my feelings on how sad I felt during the 8ww (er, 3 weeek wait ). I think I hinted about non-exclusivity and he was like "well, you can waste your time seeing other people..." so I dropped it. Basically he brought up the ring thing before I even could so I had nothing left to "up the ante" with... he said if that's what I need to feel safe then it's going to happen sooner rather than later.
I still feel that I need to talk to him about the specifics of our "contract" - how often we see eachother, what his timing is going to be for this ring, etc.
And of course we should probably talk about all the stuff in a relationship contract. Re: timing, he did say his lease is up in August and he's going to buy something then so will need my help finding "where we want to live."
So where we left off is that he wants to see me one night this week (I think Wednesday) and before then I'm supposed to research rings... He said he wants to take me away for the weekend as well.
I am happy - still wrapping my head around all of this but happy. It's very rushed but there is a comfort level I have with him that I've never felt with other guys... like he "gets" me. (And he absolutely does not let me lead, so I end up feeling silly inside for getting so worked up about things like I did yesterday afternoon. He was at the hospital all day - his cousin was having a baby.) Anyway there you have it.
M.--I couldn't be more thrilled for you...I have to admit that I find the line about your wasting time with other men very hot!
This is where you let him lead--if he tells you to go shopping for a ring--go shopping and don't get upset that you didn't get a surprise. If you don't want to pick the specific ring, you could tell him that you like round stones or radiant cut--a plain band or Etruscan styled. Also, I would be scouting neighborhoods for places that you would like to live--or not. I.e. a good school system area verses young hip hang out spots.
Yes, of course, he had to take the time and thought processes to be ready for a wife and children...and his being set up for comparison was exactly what I had asked you to do in accepting other dates... Everyone falls in love when no one else compares.
Since this is still a little shaky, I'd wait until you had your ring before discussing your relationship contract...in other words not rocking the boat until you had the rock--but it does have to be done--and he has to do one as well.
With his being overwhelmed at work, especially since you know that he's going to make you a wife and mother, he's going to have some big expenses--like your ring, a wedding and to purchase a home. He's very much in the 'building his wealth' period of his life--so if it were me, I'd be cutting him some slack in spending less time with you now to build a solid financial future with you and your children later. Pat says a once per week date is necessary--so if he can't see you more than once per week for a 'date', then you need to decide if seeing you at 11 p.m. is something you can compromise on--because it may be that late in the evening when you see him once you're married anyway. Again, listen to your comfort level and be as receptive as you can possibly be. You're now HIS woman.
C. came into the conversation and I said to her:
I'm so happy for M.--I really think its going to happen for her--but she needs to get out of her own way--and that's what I'm worry about....a traditional relationship is not Burger King (you have those in the U.K., right?) ....the old Burger King expression was 'have it your way'...and it has to be his.
C. said: She reminds me of me!! I would be just the same! I really really hope this unfolds beautifully for her. Bless you for helping.
It's scary for all of us to give up control to a guy that really hasn't earned a trust worthy track record with you--and truthfully even one that has. I love sailing so I liken this to turning your sails into a man's wind and letting him take you on a journey that you would not have had, had it not been for him.
Some years ago, I had a male friend who was married who used to say all of the time that he and his wife fought and what kind of marriage is it if we're both going in different directions? I've never forgotten that. Masculine men are natural born leaders; he won't change who his is at his core, so if she wants him, he has to know that HIS woman had to trust him enough to let him lead her and their lives together--and that means not being pissy about his wanting to see her just to hold her at 10 p.m. or whatever M. decides is 'appropriate'. You're not going to win every battle; pick the one's worth fighting.
(In my continued conversations with M. about her boyfriend J. 'disppearing' about 3 weeks ago, she's now questioning whether or not her decision to go off the market and become exclusive and being sexually active without knowing him better was a mistake.)
Pat says not to take yourself off the market WITHOUT A COMMITMENT--but you get to decide the level of what that commitment is. You were willing to date him exclusively because he verbalized that he might want to marry you. You took that risk. What Pat is talking about are the women who become girlfriends (forever) without men every having any thought of marriage as their future. Those women wait endlessly, or a man tells them from the beginning that he doesn't want to get married and they hang around for a couple of years hoping that he'll change his mind. So yes, Pat recommends dating until you find 3 number ones--any of which may ask for monogamy and take you off the market to become their wife.
Your monogamy was not premature--he asked for exclusivity, you accepted...different concept. You took a risk sleeping with him based on his words--and we watch a man's actions--anyone can say anything--from now on you may call me 'Her Majesty, the Queen of China'. Does that make me her? No.
(C. then came into the conversation privately...)
Fran I don't want to give the girls the impression that I am a married man chaser...but I just had the sweetest email from my mentor...he had mistakenly thought that he had offended me because details of a significant meeting had not gotten to me (my fault entirely because I am not yet plugged into the email system at work) until today...
It was just so funny and sensitive (talking about me as the princess and the pea and how esteemed I was ...). Then I thanked him for being thoughtful but reassured him that he was picking up on a tone in my emails which was due to the fact that I was a bit frazzled after a sleepless night (other work worries) and that it had indeed been as if I had slept on a mattress with a pea underneath...
(This is funny to me C. because I always liken myself to the Princess and the Pea. Have you read any of the material on 'highly sensitive' people? You might find the work interesting and revealing. Some years ago I was mentoring a guy in real estate and I fell in love with his daughter...he said to me that he couldn't 'take' her because all day long it was 'daddy, I'm hot', 'daddy, I'm cold', 'daddy ,I'm thirsty', 'daddy, I'm hungry'. All day long she voiced how she was to have her needs attended to...now that's MY child. I'm just like that. When I buy shoes I have to try on every pair in the store in my size to possibly get one 'right' shoe and one 'left' shoe that don't hurt in order to make to make a perfect pair.)
(We were once all together and she was complaining once that she had gotten a mosquito bite while we were out scouting properties and 'daddy' had said to her that he didn't have any 'itch medicine' with him. When we got back to my house I asked her if she was OK or if she still needed 'itch medicine'? My little indignant darling said 'no, I'm not OK', walked herself into my bathroom and promptly sat down showing me the exact spot on her leg that needed tending.)
My mentor then sent one of his customary jokey/jocular emails straight back just to get the balance back and be back in the driving seat..
I am learning so much about the way guys don't lead at all with their tenderest feelings ....
They do when they've fallen in love. But men also compartmentalize. Women always lead with their feelings; men do when they're not doing something else. Pat always says that men are far more sensitive than a woman could ever be. He may not lead with his feelings, but he knows how to manipulate them in YOU.
I do hope I can find someone in real life that I get on with as well as this guy. I have learned so much from the last year. In many ways, he has spoiled me for the next available guy I meet because he is exceptional. I also need to guard my heart this coming year at work.
That's the best we can hope for from any man--that he raises the bar higher in his treatment of you; to learn your value--and any man treating you 'less than' isn't worthy of your company.
Anyway, I will keep you posted of developments...
Please go back and read my blog "Phone Sex" you'll see how easy it is to be swept away when you're feeling vulnerable and the guy at the other end of the conversation is telling you everything that you've waited a lifetime to hear. It's been a lot of years since this one pulled at my heartstrings but every 6 months or so he still looks at my profile to let me know that he's thinking about me or wondering if I'm still available to come out and play with him. For me, there's only so much flirting that I want to do before I need it to be real; and if a guy isn't willing to make it real, I'm not going through the emotional masturbation of dancing the flirting dance without it progressing. It's an unfortunate state of affairs that we as woman have to wait to be asked, but when a man flirts but doesn't ask, by his inaction, we know his ultimate choice. The distilled reality is that anything other than a yes, is a no. There is only so long that a man can have my attention without his affection before I'm willing to move on to a man who IS willing to step up to the plate.
That situation with J. must have taken such a lot out of you! A tough lesson indeed. Soulful, romantic words like that just go through your heart like butter...
The guy I work with is absolutely genuinely about who he is and has high ethical standards in his work and his general approach but... he is very clever politically indeed and has admitted as much to me that he knows how to work situations and people to get the best results. I think he really understands women and knows which metaphorical buttons to press and it is relatively easy for him. I know he has no intention of doing anything untoward with me; but I sense that what is for him 'light' flirting is for me much more costly.
He has occasionally told me he is a bit of a bastard. I asked him what he meant on the fifth occasion and he compared himself to a wily politician.
There are biological reasons why women love the bad boy bastards. I was reading an article about this yesterday regarding the nature/nurture dichotomy on this. The writer claimed that it was a combination of biology and women who had 'daddy issues'. I disagree; I believe they are one in the same.
Women like those type of men because without men who had the mindset to go toe to toe with an enemy; to 'step up and show me what you've got', as it were, both ourselves and our children died in their care.
Therefore, if a woman (like me) had a father who was more of a bad ass than not, who grew up in a house filled with macho men who were taught to behave the same way, then of course, the imprinting of 'this is how a man behaves' has her NEEDING those qualities in a man and nothing less will do.
On the other hand, lesser males who didn't have both the emotional and physical territorial boundaries who were not able to pass their genetic material forward died off by the hands of either beast or foe.
And then there is the growth and development of the fetus itself and how much estrogen is washed over the male/female child based on the stress levels of the mother which will either masculinize or feminize the child--which is separate and aside from their physiological gender....but changes the development in critical thinking and body form. I.e. women who excel in typically male dominated fields such as engineering have had a greater testosterone bath in the womb. Men who's bodies have more breast tissue and a roundness from their waist to their hips have had more estrogen washed over them as a fetus.
Your guy's understanding of his role as being a bastard is his way to compete, conquer and control. That's what a man should do.
That said, he is very strict about context and time for any meet ups ...coffee houses, daylight etc He keeps everything in a work context between us other than a work social get together once every couple of months.
I promise I will not allow myself to melt any more!! I was doing really well until the email earlier today. I am so glad I shared it with you.
I really think that this guy has the manipulation skills of a master! We all muddle through this with lots and lots of practice of rear view mirror extrapolation. But as for your alpha male, don't believe for one second that he isn't playing and practicing with you. He's not naive...and he gets to 'play' outside of his marriage just a bit to see whether or not 'he still has it'. Your responsiveness to his male energy has him titillated, it's not innocent.
Very wise words Fran. I will take what you said to heart. A friend of mine in whom I have confided also reminded me that men just bounce back after words/encounters and we are far more impacted by them. That is what you are saying to me. It is probably the case that the cost for me emotionally is far greater.
Yes... you are right. I hadn't thought of it like that!!! Bless you m'dear, I have copied your response to me as a reminder!
Fran, in the end, do you think, that a guy in this guy's situation is mostly about enjoying the feedback he gets when I react/respond ..ego strokes etc ..more than anything more substantial friendship wise...
I absolutely do. Here is a man, x number of years of being married, who is on some level bored with the safety and security of the woman that he has at home. And although he may love her and never dream of actually crossing a line as to have an affair and certainly not leave her, this little bit of titillation that he gets from you. Any meeting that the two of you have could be construed by any outsider as JUST work meetings but your 'stokes' offer him a challenge in ways that he dare not dream of within the propriety of marriage. He's being CLEVER in never quite crossing a line with you but indeed manipulating you just enough to have him fantasizing over him. He feeds you just enough of his bait to keep you hanging around wanting more 'food' from him.
I wonder if I am a silly female who needs to get her head totally straightened out ....
I'm thinking about old boyfriends... 2 of them were serious manipulators and turned out to be womanizers..I didn't sleep with either of them but was drawn in by the clever NLP tactics of one older man and the other had that 'bad boy' charm....
Then I found The Rules and that was a useful start... and then loads of learning etc. But I am clearly still a soft touch!!! This is beyond helpful and a wake up call. THANK YOU.
I was so tempted to go into work for the meeting I mentioned to you in the first email. I think I will use my genuine business as an excuse to stay home and complete my big project and allow a little more space between him and I.
It is very telling that whenever I get a little more matter of fact and busy, he always leaps in with some extra warm comment or is extra teasing... You are right, he knows how to keep me where he wants me emotionally.
I related to your story...so much!! He said I was like praline cracknell (do you have that in the US?) crunchy on the outside and soft in the middle. Thanks so much Fran.
Look at how Joshua--the man in my 'phone sex' blog said to me exactly what I wanted to hear. I had asked him in the very beginning what it was about me that he responded to...He told me that he KNEW that I had been hurt--but that I couldn't keep my hurt inside of me forever... (who hasn't been hurt???) He took a universal emotion and made it appear to me that I was the only person in the world who could have felt that way; and he was oh-so-very-special to have looked into my soul and seen in that [pain in me. Everyone wants to be understood for who they are.)
He told me that he knew that I NEEDED to be loved the same way that he WANTED to love a woman...look at how masterfully he tried to manipulated me with his seduction! But he couldn't get me to have phone sex with him...so like a perfect neurolinguistic /player, he turned up the heat with the great take away--either I was going to play this his way--Mr. Master Manipulator--OR he was going to wish me well by telling me 'how sad it was for him that I didn't understand him'. He promised me love--he took it as fast as he offered it--thinking that I was so starved for love that I would have done anything for more 'love food' of him/from him... Whether he was a psychiatrist or just trained himself in understanding basic human behavior (just as pick up artists do), recognize that he he has a skill set that has served him in the past, so he went back to the well for another dip to use it again.
All of that Joshua bullshit was at the beginning of my Pat training....and I've learned a few things since then....like not to listen to a man's words but to watch his actions...(wink). We're all soft touches at our core. I also believe that it's true for most of us recovering yang's is that we're 'inside out'-- meaning that we're tough on the outside and soft on the inside--which is exactly the opposite of what yin is supposed to be. We're supposed to be soft outside and hard inside--the opposite of men.
The recognition of your behavior in this is also beginning of change!
I promise I will not allow myself to melt any more!! I was doing really well until the email earlier today. I am so glad I that I shared it with you.
You have very wise words Fran. I will take what you said to heart. A friend of mine in whom I have confided also reminded me that men just bounce back after words/encounters and we are far more impacted by them. That is what you are saying to me. It is probably the case that the cost for me emotionally is far greater.
Lol, I don't have any idea of what a praline cracknell is--but perhaps when I actually become the Queen of China perhaps I'll take a diplomatic trip abroad!
LOL ..you are a card!
Thanks for loving me--
Aaaaawwww.... the pleasure is all mine!!!
Finally, I am not saying that I have simply let it all hang out! I am very much in favour of strategic frameworks in dating. That said, I tend to mix up mine because I forget in the moment and act in the moment!
After all, there was nothing to lose so it was an interesting experiment for someone like me who tends to freeze up and get very anxious about dating scenarios for real... I am usually so anxious not to make a mistake that the whole thing stresses me out.
C., *IF* you have enough inner clarity AND can keep your head/heart from wanting him, I don't have a problem with you using him for practice. But do it as an experiment to watch his reactions--as a man--but not as a man that you can have. If you're able to separate out the two and keep the mindset of watching your behavior--just like you would on a duty date, then I don't have a problem with you spending time with him.
If, however, he's pulling at your heartstrings and fantasizing about how wonderful it would be if his wife were hit by a bus, then for your own sanity, you have to stay away from him.
Remember this man knew how to get at least one woman to fall in love with him and into bed (his wife). He'll know exactly how to do that again. He's not-so-innocently doing this...he's doing this (to you) because it feels good to him.
Some time ago, I had a man do, what I felt was playing with me and I fell head over heels waiting for him to make it real. I was with a mentor and I told him about the issue. I asked why someone would do that? He said to me was 'he's doing it because he can'. THAT'S a one liner that I've never forgotten...
I have to be honest and say that I probably can use him as practice and to regain my confidence. I operated with an odd ' C.' mix of playing it cool and being 'busy' and at the same time when we are chatting about work or whatever, AND being my full self and by allowing different aspects of who I am, my feminine take in things, my unique and quirky take on things, including when I was deeply upset on 2 or 3 occasions, to bubble through and by allowing him to tease me and give me professional support.
I probably instinctively used two or three different and slightly conflicting dating strategies to great effect. My own inability to stick to anything perfectly has certainly wrong footed this. His instinctive Alpha male behavior on more than one occasion has come to the fore and it wasn't even my intent. But that is also me ...I am not systematic in any part of my life....
I have also in the end started and finished what makes me tick what works for me. And it has worked, to my great surprise‚ albeit in this practice scenario.
I'm really ready again to face the dating world even if it is bumpy and disappointing. This is also because this type of guy would be right for me if he were on the market. The right type of guy is enthralled by the women we are and we end up feeling good about ourselves not because we perform perfectly but because we are creatures in which men delight!!!!
My one caveat here is that I need to guard my heart now more than I have done in the past. This time when I meet a guy who would be interesting to me if he were available, I had nothing to lose and practiced some approaches to see how they went. My guy is a totally self-confident alpha male and not going to be railroaded by a woman ...but I wanted to see what impression if at all I made.
I need to remember when I am back in the work place more regularly than I have been for months ( a project has kept me at home since last October and only going into work once or twice a month) that guys do not bond the way we do...I think my oxytocin bonding happens with quality time ..even if it is only a short work meeting!!!! So, I will be reducing any meeting time we have (and we are tasked with meeting because of my project) on the pretext of being busy or whatever......
The dating world and getting out and about beckons in April and I will no doubt have more problems than anyone else.
Have not been able to find a description of praline cracknell for you on-line (!!) but wanted to report on strategic progress since yesterday's VERY helpful e-exchange. Thank you again.
I sense that I need to initiate at this stage a subtle/smooth retreat. So today, I could easily have justified a trip into town for a very interesting departmental meeting (it is indirectly relevant to what I am researching) but I let it be known that I am playing catch-up (which is true) because of some last minute hitches with my research project.
So, I sent a brief, regretful but upbeat message to that effect about how boring it is to be stuck with all this work etc and that the meeting looked really interesting, say 'hi' to the gang etc etc. I think he picks up instinctively on resistance and when I appear to be 'floating away' ... and at this stage, I simply need to get my perspective clear as I create more space and more inner critical clarity as far as is possible. I will be in the work place regularly from April.
Have a super day and I am now head down in books and writing!!!!! It is raining and horribly cold here in England,
I am hoping that the next few weeks of absence until the second week in April, will help me to strengthen my perspective, so that I don't romanticise or mis-read his motivations, and then we will see in April how far I have come!
I loved the line about his wife being hit by a bus LOL!!! You got it!!! But I also promise that I will be honest and accountable.
Your one liner is very telling. I will hang onto that. It really de-romanticizes everything even more. Makes
me think of cat and mouse games, too. I so appreciate all this wise ammunition.
I suddenly realised that I actually feel quite hurt that I have been the object of this particular type of male attention. I also know that I am responsible now and in the next stage for my part and the way I handle it. But my heart let me know how it was feeling just now ....and it was feeling disappointment/let down and a measure of hurt.
If I allow the truth of that to percolate through my system for the next few weeks, I will end up stronger and with a better strategy because my clarity will be greater. Thank you, this is just sharing to keep me accountable. Bless you Fran!
What was it that they said in a recent episode of 'Absolutely Fabulous'? There's a new disease called Kardashian...they're multiplying like head lice. I'll admit it...it's not every week that I watch, but I'm sucked in like every episode of Gold Rush on a Friday night. Caught somewhere between planting my palm into my forehead in a 'wtf are they thinking?' to helplessly hoping that maybe, just maybe they can get it right--once.
Today's big newsflash is that Kim has decided to keep her wedding gifts suppossedly valued at $100,000.00 but doubling that amount in a donation to the Dream Foundation to apparent wide spread social applause.
Did you ask your guests whether or not they would like their gifts returned? That's the socially acceptable thing to do. I had to ask myself was it that you weren't taught better? Oh, please Kim, we're really not that dumb.
You get a hundred thousand in gifts, but do a little dance in the form of a tax write off in the amount of two hundred thousand? The only contribution that made sense to was your accountant and your PR firm. They learned well from Ted Turner.
It took me a few episodes to get it with the crazy couponing as well. Why take all of the milk and other perishables that a family couldn't possibly consume before it went bad? Because not only do they get the front end savings out of pocket--but they take the back end tax deduction for the full value of the donations, too.
Anyone who knows me well, knows that especially in the summer, it's a constant change of nail polish color. I happen to really like it when my the pedi color matches my shoes...(shrug) it's a thing that I do, go with it. I actually took this picture of my brother's girlfriend's cat when I was in Los Angeles last summer. I sent to my favorite male lifeguard-- who, unfortunately for him, bears witness to the practically daily polish change.
I sent him this picture in a text along with the line "Guess what I'm doing in Cali?". He told me that that this picture made his whole summer... (If you're wondering, no, I didn't actually polish the cat's nails, they are some sort of sticky wrap coloring that Cheryl puts on the cats.)
I've been going through some old messages between some friends and I when I started working Pat's program. I had written about this a few blogs ago about Frank and the woman he was dating; (yeah, I was right ultimately he dumped her) and how she felt threatened by me. This conversation is between me and Elenor...
E--quite honestly I don't give her any thought--other than I think she's stupid--she says stupid things--like about the white coat and gloves which I don't own. Once she admired a ring I was wearing so I took it off and handed it to her. She said to me "never give anyone your happiness--just do this" and she put the ring in the middle of her hand so that someone would take it instead of handing it to someone. (Much like receiving communion.) Stupid stuff.
I don't think she sole Frank from me; he made his choice, it wasn't me. And no, I don't feel sorry for her for trying to love him; I loved him, another woman would as well. He does however have an ex-wife who cheated on him and left him. She had to left him for a reason(s).
But as for me, no, I really don't ever want to see Frank again. I can't look at him and not love him. I can't imagine a time where I could ever see him and not have all the hurt come rushing back at me. I don't want anyone there at the club to talk to me about him. And what if she's still there? God, then there are those emotions would have to be dealt with too? Don't ask me to do that.
Eventually, Frank will know as well that she's wrong for him. But I could never trust him again either. I know in time that this pain will be gone for me and someday I'll meet someone else and stop thinking about him. Bottom line is that I need to be with a man whom I could trust. I need to know that I can count on him to be there. Frank taught me he wasn't that guy. Or maybe I just didn't inspire him to do so.
I've never had anyone play with me before. Flirt yes. Play with me--nope.
I guess I don't understand the control issues he has. Jealousy at other men around me, watching, listening. I've worked at trying to understand those quirks. But, I'm not him and it's his job and his journey; his life lessons to figure out what he wants, what he lost, and his part in all of it.
I have a friend who Frank had asked about me, around a month ago. (Yes, I cried when he told me that Frank had asked about me.) He said to me that Frank is confused and that I was just caught up in the middle. He's not. He's a grown up. (Then my friend he said to me "if I were single I would want you in one second".) That was kind, but it came from the wrong guy.
So to answer your question, his current girl friend DOES see me as a threat. The very first thing she ever said to me was "I just want you to know you're a beautiful woman" this was later followed by "you looked so sexy at the Christmas party"...when she and Frank began dating, she said to me "you're an attractive woman, lots of men would be interested in dating you". "The first time I ever saw you, you were wearing a white coat and white gloves and I thought to myself WOW who's that?" (The funny thing about this is she saw me as some sort of vision in white--I don't own a white coat or white gloves!) Then and then..."he wasn't the right guy for you...I'm going to help you get over him." F' her.
You don't know how close I came to wanting to bitch slap her. She didn't know anything about me and who I was or wasn't the right guy--all she knew was that I was the competition for his affection and attention.
So then I started playing her game and asking her "How many times have you been married?" I knew it had been "a couple of times"(I overheard a conversation when she said so before they started dating). She knew that I was on to her game and volleyed back...and she said "I don't want to talk about me; lets talk about you." Catty claws!
Eventually, Frank will know what he's lost and what he's gained. But that's his choice to make, not mine.
As for my part in this, I'll admit to wanting his soul gifts; to sleep with me, date me, kiss me, touch me, choose me. I am sad beyond words that he told her about me...he didn't tell me about her; I watched both of their behaviors. As much as they tried to hide it, I saw it. But I won't apologise for the vulnerablility. I believe that everyone is at the most lovable when they are at their most vulnerable. I guess it's time to start dating other men, but part of me doesn't feel available to anyone...
No, there has been no contact between us. But it took me until a couple of weeks ago to remove him from my buddy list and stop kissing my finger and touching his name on my screen when he popped up knowing he was just on the other side of cyberspace.)
Oh honey -- we have ALL done that! That's totally normal grieving behaviour! And we ALWAYS grieve the loss of a dream!
There's a man I had a good relationship with (pretty much the only one before MR) when I was younger; he And I STILL kiss my finger and touch his picture when I run across it. He was a very valuable lesson, and one I am grateful for. I've also thought seriously of getting rid of the pictures of the guys I loved madly, who broke my heart into little tiny pieces -- and I decided consciously and intentionally that I will keep those pictures, too.
Those guys were also important lessons for me. Horrid, horrible, excruciating lessons, but I would not be who I am without them.
You have been circling the wound in your heart (that HE put there) -- ruminating on him and the loss you feel- but now it's time for you to stop (and good girl for starting to stop it!). You took an ACTION after the feeling and thought! Right? You *felt* how very much you miss him and want him; you *thought* that this was no longer a healthy thing for you, and you *acted* by deleting him! Thus does the healing start!!
Don't "feel think feel think feel think." That is, don't ruminate; if you start to go into your dreaming of how it was, how it could be if only, any of your thought patterns about him -- change your pattern. As long as you tack that "act" or "don't act" on the end of your process, you're okay. It's when you spend time circling the drain -- feel think feel think feel think -- that you mess up your brain chemistry!
So, it's be hot OR be cold, but don't be lukewarm -- that is, commit or don't commit, but don't sort-of commit, or sort-of not-commit. You have decided this man is not for you, and so you have been "sort-of" giving him up. But that's lukewarm, because you're not dating him--enough. You're not angry enough to say: this man is not for me. And you're not able to say, this man IS for me. So you're flailing...
So the lukewarm, the feel think feel think feel think, is damaging your neurotransmitters. Because they each activate chemistry -- but you don't USE the chemicals for anything.
And you've never been sexually trespassed on like this before (I'm guessing). That full-court press he laid on you is disorienting, when you believed he was being honest with you. My guess is, his pheromones were probably just exactly right for you. That's chemical: your body WANTS to reproduce with him, and will fight you tooth and neurotransmitter to get you pregnant by him!! However, chemical compatibility doesn't mean he's good for you- and this guy is clearly not! So, you're fighting you own hormones! (Spare a little sympathy for yourself, too, eh?)
But about her...What do you suppose she gained from telling you all of that? What do you suppose is HER level of trust in him, if he watches you the whole time she's with her, and then he walks her out and then comes back to see if you noticed? Why would she want to hurt you? Wanna bet he told HER those things as a way to control HER -- to keep HER at arm's length? Wanna bet it's his pattern, bet he tells the next one about her!? He has a harem of women circling him and wanting him -- and after 'hooking' you, he has been watching to see how much control he still has, how much can he hurt you by flaunting his new girl in front of you...
Do you think she was telling you for your own benefit? Or was she trying to hurt you, to make herself feel good, or to try (futilely) to protect HER interest in him (especially as he is still trying to manipulate you! (And using her to do it?! Think she didn't KNOW he's doing that?)
You're "married" to this guy. We women bond, we "marry" (it's why duty dating is such a trial!! We WANT to be monogamous!) long before the guy is even exclusive with us! It's why we have to do this by rote: we "make" ourselves duty date... because it's our duty to ourselves! How many girls that you know try out their first name with his last name when he's only dated us four times, except he's probably ALSO dating some other woman four times at the SAME time! And since we know it -- we make ourselves protect our hearts and bodies until we negotiate verbally a commitment that he will ALSO protect us!
Epilogue: In the end, she and Frank broke up--after he decided that he didn't want to marry her--no surprise to me; she wasn't marriage material. She had a bad habit of trading one husband for another.
I saw Frank just a couple of weeks ago; he told me that he had been thinking about me. I've always said that EVERYTHING that I am is because of him--and I was right all of those years ago. I knew that I needed to be away from him for years to regroup. I was right, I still can't look at him and not love him. But the love has changed for me. I can't go back in time and undo the depths of that pain. There is a part of me that wonders if he were to ask me out today, knowing all that I know, could I say yes. But I think that the answer would have to be no. I walked down that road before. It was filled with thorns and stickers that hurt.
El lost her husband; her beloved MR suddenly this past July to a heart attack after mowing the lawn in some afternoon Southern heat. She always wondered how her life with MR would turn out in the end; she said that she wanted every moment of her experiences of him; that she couldn't turn the pages fast enough to get to the end of the book.
I had trouble sleeping last night and they aired the movie on t.v. so I watched it again. Because I like human behavior and to peel back the layers of the onion, it was difficult for me not to look at the subtext of successive generations of alcoholism and care taking that lead "Trevor" to question at an early age whether or not his behavior could indeed change the world.
I began thinking about the nicest thing that I had ever done for someone was and I picked something. I used to have a subordinate who was older than I was, but who was poor. Really poor. I saw him once break down and cry because he had lost his bus pass for the month and didn't have $35.00 to replace it. His mother had died in a fire when he was 7 and he and his sister were raised by a neighbor whom he always called his aunt. There was a dichotomy in his life. On the one hand, they were staunchly Catholic; on the other hand staunchly prideful that they wouldn't accept charity so they suffered along 'well enough' and made do with the little bits and bobs of what he did have.
I noticed one day that underneath his shirt, I could see that he had holes ripped through in the armpits of his undershirt. Over the next few weeks, I would nonchalantly ask him one question at a time about his sizes. I was dating a guy who was about as big as he was, and what size shirt did he wear because my 'date' had a birthday coming up...
In the end, I bought him a few packages of underwear and tee shirts. I told him that my mother had bought them for my dad at the flee market, they couldn't be returned; did he think they would fit him? That made it easy for him to say yes.
Then I thought about what other people might have thought from their end about me. There was the time I saw a hit a run; Robyn was in the car with me--I said to her 'I have to do this' and I turned my car around, followed the car that had done the hitting, waited for them to get to a stop sign, wrote down the license plate number and reported it to the police. The police called me at about 6 pm that night to tell me that the guy who was hit finally came in to write a report. All that he knew was that the car was red. They told me that they wouldn't have solved the case without me.
There was the time that I found a wallet in Target and called every number I could find in it--including a number for a vet until someone found her. She had lived in Florida, was in NJ for a few days and then off to California for vacation. She told me I had saved her life. I hadn't, but there was time that I did.
Her name was Tracy and she was about 2 years old. I was life guarding. Her mom had given her something to drink with ice cubes in it; she started choking. I picked her up by the feet, turned her upside down and started hitting her back until it dislodged.
There was the time when I had a contractor that I knew call me to tell me there was a vacant property around the corner from one that he was working on--and that he couldn't afford to buy both--but if I could make something happen, to remember him. I did. I bought that house; flipped it to another contractor, and ultimately made $58,000.00. I thought that I could call him and give him a check or to do something more fun. So I had my attorney write to him, include a check for $10,000.00 and just say Fran said thanks.
So when I got my phone call from the contractor I heard the whole story. How he saw the letter from the lawyer and his heart started racing wondering 'oh no, who's suing me?' He told me he was shaking as he opened it but couldn't believe what he saw. As it turned out, it took me close to a year to do that deal; he couldn't believe that I made it happen, that I remembered him for doing that and best of all, that he had fallen on some hard times and needed the cash, as he said, more badly than I'd ever know. He invited me to a party that he was having that weekend and as he walked me around the room and introduced me, he told every single person the story of how he got the check. I knew that he'd be telling that story forever.
Just a couple of months ago, I was having trouble with my Blackberry, so I headed to my phone provider's store. As I started to walk from the parking lot to the curb, right up against it was a cell phone; a very nice cell phone; same phone provider and for a split second I thought about keeping it; but then I did what I would have wanted someone to have done for me. I called the last number that had been outgoing and asked if this was a familiar number to them. The girl on the other end said that it was; it was her mother's phone. I told her that I had it and did she have another way to be in touch with her; and I gave her my number. Within a half hour I had given the phone back...I didn't even get a thank you. Until this moment, I hadn't told anyone that story.
I've thought about the countless people that I've helped save their home from tax sales and foreclosure sales without ever getting one thin dime for doing so. I get called an Angel. My mother used to call me her angel; so did my first boyfriend; I wish the term made me happier, but the connection to it has a sadness associated with it.
I thought about my parents and how I did what needed to be done for them through their illness and ultimately their deaths; and it frightens me that I'm alone and who would do that for me? Who would would be committed enough say kaddish for me for a year? Who would light yahrzeit candles at my remembrance? Would it be someone who didn't have to? The way that I do for my cousin Marshall. It's not an obligation, but I do it, because he was family. Not by blood, but in my heart. Being a woman, sometimes it just behooves you to take a step back and hide your light under a bushel.
But be clear within yourself that if/when he comes back, and you've past the 8 week point, that it starts the relationship over again from scratch and he needs continued good behavior--not this flaking crap in order for him to catch you into being monogamous...you're the prize--not him. Unfortunately, you can't call him on the flaking other than to say that it doesn't make you feel cherished by him.
Yes, all the flaking was pretty bad. However, if he is in some kind of terrible angst trying to figure out the direction of his life then I'm willing to put it in the past and see what he does from here on in (assuming he comes back). I'm trying to look at this as a necessary healthy time for him since it DID move crazy fast... in more 'normal' courtships that happen over 3,4 months most men would have time to digest what was happening. He hasn't. I just can't imagine myself with anyone else now so it's very painful having to walk away while he figures his stuff out. :(
Correct--we respect a man's space/time to process.
I know not duty dating is not great for me but I guess this is why you shouldn't give away premature exclusivity, as I did.
No, you did what you felt comfortable doing. Exclusivity is a far better situation that a continuous loop of dates without the monogamy, continuity or commitment.
Agree there is no point in mind-reading. But if you are right that he feels he's more into me than vice versa (which in my heart is NOT true) then he's being a little crazy. I mean, aside from ONE snippy text message, I have been consistently receptive, affectionate, giving back, following his lead...
But he may NOT think that way. HE might think that he's further into you than you are to him--especially if he has had women swooning and falling all over him. He may not like the fact that he has to work to keep you. Men aren't women; they think differently than we do. Sex for a man in love is a place for a man to feel connected. You didn't want to feel like you were a booty call; he said that wasn't at all what he wanted. He hadn't seen you and needed to be with you--to wake up with you, to reconnect with you. I think he took that as rejection. I'm not saying that you did anything wrong--because you felt disconnected by him when you didn't see him earlier and weren't comfortable with his wanting to sleep over; but unless you two talk openly about these kinds of things, you can't deepen your emotional intimacy by understanding eachother.
I don't know what he realistically expects after a few weeks of dating. I'm only just now coming to terms with his intensity and realizing he WAS serious when he said all those things. However, looking back, even since date #1 he told me I was "emotionally detached." (The "no soul" comment was more recent.) Iassume it's because girls are always laying it on thick, and chasing him and calling him and I don't? I don't really get it because nobody has ever described me that way before.
This is HIS perception of how he compares you to other women. It may be that one of his non-negotiables is that he have a woman by his side who he perceives is more 'emotionally attached' but should you and he get back together this IS one of the things that the two of you should talk about...and that is that your emotional timeline is just longer than his...that YOU needed more time to suss out your feelings and that it's unfair for him, since the two of you are different people that you should be on exactly the same time line--but you're getting there. I know it bothers him that I haven't opened up about this "secret" question, but I DID reluctantly talk a bit about past relationships when he asked.
He can be upset of your secrets all that he wants--but the truth is that you have the right to tell or not to tell ANYTHING at any time--or not. You don't owe him that--exactly because you haven't built up a trustworthy track record. When I was in my 20's, I had a mentor tell me to never give someone bullets to shoot you with--and I've never forgotten it. How often do dirty little secrets come out in divorce court? When things get ugly, mud starts slinging. *IF* your illness is your deepest secret than the time to tell him about it is at your engagement--that way he has the time to decide if he's willing to take a risk on you. *I* wouldn't tell him beforehand. Some women would wait until after a marriage; but I think that it's fair under the guise of 'full disclosure'. So telling him a lesser secret is appropriate. I'm not even sure that I would know the answer to that question should I be asked since I live my life for the most part secret free.
There is a time and place for secrets with your man--and those are his. A man, as a warrior (and masculine men always consider themselves as such), have to KNOW that their woman has their back as a life and death situation and that she never to is reveal what she has learned about him-- ever. He doesn't know who is or may become an enemy. He can't have his enemies knowing the vulnerability of his soft white underbelly. This is a bigger deal than any man will ever tell you. This is also the reason that men don't apologise. It's it one up, one down; who's the dog and who's the bitch(?) in every circumstance. A man apologising is him admitting that he's one down; don't ever expect it.
Another time, earlier on, he said "I know you're going to break my heart" (I responded - you're going to break mine!). And on another date he said that both of us were incredibly afraid of getting hurt. Which appears to be true... but now he's hurting me anyway :(
Being vulnerable is always appropriate...if you have the opportunity, you should tell him.
I just can't imagine myself with anyone else now so it's very painful having to walk away while he figures his stuff out. :(
You're not walking away--he did. You're just moving on with your life--with or without him. Being a woman means that today, you put on your big girl panties and live appropriately within pain to him. You don't walk around moaning your menstrual cramps; you handle it and move on with your day.
I've written before that I believe that part of being a woman is having a space inside of you that you don't share with a man. He doesn't need to know your bathroom habits, be a witness to your grooming or as politically incorrect as this may be, I don't necessarily believe that a man should be in the delivery room when you have a child. I'm not sure that it's an accident that men revered women and treated them better (as something to be beheld as fragile and to be cherished) when a man waited in the waiting area for hospital staff to announce to him that it was a boy or girl. Does a man really need to know what a woman is like when she is perspiring and screaming and blood is pouring from her? Does that make her more womanly or more manly that she can suffer that pain the way that man would on a battle ground?
It doesn't even make sense that he would break up with me.
He HASN'T BROKEN UP WITH YOU...he just needs some space to figure some things out. If you're not ready to date today, then you're not ready...I'd mark my calander for a week from Sunday--that would be 15 days from contact, right?
He did specifically ask me to stop seeing other guys and date only him, and so yes he knows I took down the profile... we talked about that.
OK so he knows enough to know that if he looks and you put it back up, that you're ready to move on...
The thought of him dating other women makes me feel physically ill.
That's the oxytocin. The natural equivalent of cocaine addiction and withdrawl.
Okay, I see your point. Maybe he also felt disconnected because I had my period when I did see him last (when I tried to apologize for the misunderstanding over the texts the night before) so sex was not in the cards that day. I was affectionate and we cuddled/kissed but maybe it made him feel further apart...who knows.
No way to tell....
I still can't for the life of me understand why he would go all hot and cold and then ultimately pull away after that without even wanting to SEE me. Can you shed any light on this?? I just don't get why he can't process or whatever and still see me... especially since we haven't even had a chance to properly talk :(
Because, as Pat says, men fall in love during the spaces...they need to miss you, yearn for you, refuel his desire for you and ultimately capture you--again. Men need to know that whatever happens in the outside world, that within the four corners of your relationship, that the bond of just the two of you fuels him...and fuels him in a way that he can't get in any other relationship. Pat always says that you have to 'feed' a man because he won't feed himself and that feeding is that he KNOWS by your receptivity that he can make you happy. That's why we give them the 8 weeks...the space and time to miss you.
I just feel like it's unfair - one slip on my part and he's making this huge deal of it without even stopping to ask me about my true feelings... or at least giving me an opportunity to share them. And surely he would realize that I DO have feelings for him or I wouldn't have asked him to let me come over to make things right. If I didn't care for him I wouldn't have been so upset over the texting in the first place!
It is unfair, but these are the rules of the game. *I* think that he's coming back...but he needs to figure it out for himself.
He is pushing me away - rejecting me before I get a chance to reject him. And yet at the same time he's talking about "whether he can take it to the next level"???
*I* don't think he's pushing you away or he would have told you that it wasn't working and ended it...he's being pissy...but when you see what his pissy behavior is, you then get a chance to decide if his behavior does or doesn't keep him above the 51% that YOU need to keep him in your life--meaning that your life generally is better with him in it than without. Men test women all of the time. I frequently tell this story of my dad, who I always likened to a chained barking dog...he'd howl and bark and misbehave until my mom would unleash him....he'd run around the yard until he just got tired and then laid down again at her feet.
So maybe all of this combined in his head and he's spontaneously combusting... I am so utterly confused at what is going on with him right now.
It's all conjecture...the only one who knows really is him. But all that you can do is to practice self-care so that you're ready if and when you're ready to date others.
He has said I love you a couple of times, but I don't know how much importance to give it. The first was on the 3rd date but it was more like he blurted it out and I can't see that he meant it that early on. He said it again but it was in bed so... taken with a grain of salt. We talked around it once, more recently...he said I had to be the one to say I love you first and I said no he had to. So we danced around the subject.
It's so rare to hear a man say that he loves you; unless he gives you a reason not to believe him, you should believe him. Up until this week, he hadn't given you a reason to doubt that he had fallen. You don't need to tell him your real age or that you had a serious past illness.
Agreed, I don't want to tell him this until it's engagement ring serious. Not that it affects anything really (I am fine and healthy) but it's not something I share with just anyone. Same thing with my age. Is that totally deceptive? With him going MIA like this I'm actually glad I DIDN'T tell him these things - it would hurt me more to have opened up and then for him to walk away.
You're not walking away--he did. You're just moving on with your life--with or without him. Well I don't feel like I'm moving on... I'm in limbo. I guess I just refuse to accept that it's over yet.
You shouldn't accept that it is over for now; but you will know in a few weeks what he has decided.
March 10th would be 2 weeks since last phone call. Ugh I really hope I don't have to start duty dating again - I was so excited to finally get to delete that profile :(
OK so we've decided that March 10th your profile goes back up, right? Have you given any thought to either contact (or not) the guys who were in the online dating picture at the end?
Okay... that makes sense (I guess). They need to know for sure that they can't live without you, so they go away to test? (not that it's always a conscious decision)
No, they go away to suss out their thoughts and feelings. If someone hurts me, I have a difficult time feeling and thinking at the same time. I get hurt, I shut down; I need space and time before I'm physically able to interact. Men withdraw when they need to. It may be for play time, to bond with their buddies or to decide if they're ready to move up to the next step.
What I don't get (with J.) is the WHY this has to happen NOW, after only one month of dating. We don't even know eachother! I certainly don't expect him to make a decision about the rest of his life this soon... why is he putting this pressure on himself and our relationship? We haven't even met eachother's families - he's never met my friends.
Because men decide that they are ready for a wife and then goes out to find one that 'fits' the bill of what he thinks that he needs in his life. My GUESS is that from his perspective, he's already fantasized out marrying you, has told you that he loves you and has made all sorts of moves toward bonding with you and what he's 'feeling' is that you haven't reciprocated...i.e. the begging you to accept his facebook, the turning down his offer to sleep over, etc. He's thinking that he's been 'rejected' by you in little ways, so he acts out by his not showing up in your life, just like he thought you were not showing up in his. If you look at from his perspective he's asked and asked and asked for you to be his. He's TOLD you what he needs from you; you didn't always 'hear' him.
What would possess him to rush this and go into an 8ww so early on??? That's not normal, is it?
I'm not sure there's anything 'normal' in any relationship. Men think what they think, women feel what they feel. It happens when it happens.
So by pissy do you mean punishing me for what I said? Or punishing me because he feels like he's more into me than vice versa?
I think that he's hurt and the snippy comments are his retaliating by hurting you back.
I do think the standing me up the first time was testing me... when I didn't react he had to make it even worse the 2nd time so I really got the message...
I love the Alison Armstrong classifications of the males of the species beginning the journey from boyhood to manhood from that of a knight to a prince, and ultimately a king. All BOYS have dreams of travels to strange and far and away lands, and their adventures in those lands as a rise to the challenge of their personal worthiness and their place in their their kingdom by nothing more than acts of courage and vallor. But it is those steps--to stand before any adversary with courage and conviction are the moments that define him both by a challenge and the necessary changes to make him a man.
If he's seriously considering 'the next level' then for as much as he wants it, he has to really, really be ready to fully understand that he's giving up every bit of his natural inclinations--his freedom to do what he wants when he wants, to spread his seed far and wide with every mating opportunity gone forever, the financial responsibilities of a wife and children--meaning that it's not just him when he has a bad day and wants to tell his boss to take this job and shove it; any dreams he had of 'someday...' fill in the blank--being a race car driver, jumping out of planes or fulfilling his bucket list dream of taking a month to go climbing to the top of mt. kilimanjaro. it's far easier for a woman to bend herself into become 'his' because she isn't saddled with the 'forever' responsibilities....and you're complaining because he needs a couple of days??? The perspective of the forever of your lives together can handle a couple of days. That's why I said to you that it might be that for today, his answer may be that no, he's not ready but he may come back at some point when he is. If his decision is for today, that he's not ready, then you need to respect that choice and to move on to a man who's ready--if you are. As a woman, it's your birthright to be a wife and a mother if that's your dream. Don't ever let ONE man make that choice for you.
I'm going to force myself to re-read this paragraph every time I start going crazy over this. Very helpful Fran, thank you. I have to remember the big picture and that I have to ultimately take care of myself and my own goals... as much as I can see a future with him. :(
