I hear you about the age gap. But I'm probably the last guy to push sex on a girl. I look for girls that specifically claim they're looking to maintain "purity" or have a chaste relationship.
I understand that...but there was something that I meant to tell you earlier--and that is that if a man doesn't make some advance to kiss her at the end of a date, she will assume he isn't attracted to her.
It's like finding a needle in a haystack these days. Or someone who enjoyed the film "Battlefield Earth". But when I do I make a serious effort to discern the possibility of marriage.
I get this--I feel the same way--I want to know earlier rather than later if a man has anything about themselves that would make for less than marriage material--however, by being that serious, what you're missing out on is the fun that dating should be. Another one of Jenna's complaints was that she felt like she was being interviewed by you...that's less than the romantic and flirty fun that builds desire in women.
Flirtation gives a woman an opportunity to warm up to you before they get hot for you. By 'interviewing' a woman you get to know all about her--but she gets to know very little about you.
What I'm sensing from these talks with you (fantastic feedback) is that perhaps my ruthless, robotic methodology here is suffocating the natural and romantic elements that need to be at play in order to appease what the girl will be looking for.
Yes, you are correct and let me see if I can explain this to you in a way that might make sense--although I understand that men and woman are such different creatures, it's almost unfathomable that we would mate at all.... sex for a woman is an inward motion. she needs to let a man IN--in her heart, in her head and ultimately into her body. She needs to let a man share the same place in her body that her child would share. (re-read that last sentence--) it is THAT sacred. Christian, chaste or not, intercourse is the most vulnerable and compromised position you could ever put a woman into. As a woman, a man is on top of you tearing into you. Think about what it would take emotionally for you to allow that in your own body by someone else. Think about that trust, think about what she just allowed to happen to her, think about how a women without love or lust would feel violated. No matter how you look at it, a woman has to make room in her body for a man.
It's a straight line from a woman's genitals to her heart and to her head. The circuit goes straight up and straight down. You don't get into one place without being in the other--well, not in normal, well adjusted girls.
If you haven't built a trustworthy track record--and I don't mean just physically, a woman will never let you in. A trustworthy track record with a man includes the romantic gestures, but generally it is that she is protected, provided for and cherished in your life. That means when she's sick, she gets not only flowers, but you show up with soup. That means when her car doesn't start you're there with your AAA card or letting her borrow yours. That means that when she has a fight with her parents, she knows she can count on you at 2 am to come and get her. You place her emotional comfort ahead of yours. she has to know that YOU are best of all of her options--and it is up to you to prove to her that you are. It's up to you to prove to her that you think she's special. Asking any woman lots of questions about herself lets her know NOTHING about you. It lets her no nothing of what you can offer to her world--and that is what EVERY WOMAN is looking for in every man that she dates.
A woman only has a finite amount of time that her beauty has to capture the attention of a mate--she has a finite amount of time to have children. She has a finite amount of time of her working life and or choosing to stay home to raise her children.
IF you haven't proven to her from moment number one, resume in hand, just like a job interview that you are the best candidate for the job of being the right choice for a mate, she may move on to a man who would be by showing her more. So although you may think that you're acting like a jerk, what you're really doing is qualifying yourself to be in the running--again by showing her that you can protect her, that you can provide for her, that you cherish her feelings above your own.
Do you regret not taking the trip to London/Greece? Or were you proud for sticking to your guns?
I made the decision based on what I felt at the time--it would have been a few days in London on business for him and then on to Greece for vacation; what I regret was not allowing him to pursue me further. I stopped seeing him. I had other men that were wealthy pursuing me, so at the time it wasn't a big deal to let him fall by the wayside. The physical wasn't all there for me--he was overweight--and at the time I worked diligently on being thin. As I said, I felt that being in such close proximity, in a foreign country for that long, I felt that he would be pressuring me for sex relentlessly...and it wasn't as if i could have said goodnight, I'm going home.
I grew up in a very well off family in a very wealthy area. I thought all of that was just the standard norm. Now, I think that a lot of girls with tons to offer will settle for a wealthy guy who will give them a blank check every month but treat them poorly or cheat on them.
Those aren't your only two options. Jenna is very much like me--but not all women--in that we both were looking for the whole package...the financial security AND the hot sexual attraction. It took me a long time to learn--through the woman who I consider to be my mentor a level of 'good enough' and that what you should NOT do is to marry your best friend. You should be looking for a man who can give you the best deal you can make for yourself--meaning financial security, with social and sexual monogamy while at the same time having him be no less than 51% valuable in your life. MEANING that on the worst day,when you hate your partner, his is still at least 1% more valuable in your life than not. She said to me that she collected paintings, her husband collected antiques--every time she thought about leaving him she looked around and couldn't break up the furnishings. There is a joke in there--but she remembered that she was committed to the relationship more than to him and she was staying to work it out.
Maybe some accept that trade-off if he's a supreme provider?
Yes, there is always a trade off. for men they give up their right to spread their seed far and wide with younger and different varieties of woman. For a woman she knows she's forever tied to children, giving up her autonomy to spend her time and money as she pleases without answering to anyone.
'You are offhandedly rejecting a woman who has made a mistake; that she can't fix.only time will tell for you if someday you'll reach a place where a woman's present is more important to you than her past. right now, you're offhandedly rejecting women because you still have a choice; but someday that choice may no longer exist. people fuck up--they make mistakes; hopefully they learn from them but i don't know what's in your heart--maybe, just maybe you could forgive a woman.'
I think you might have the wrong impression of where I'm coming from on this. Its not that I'm looking to disparage any girl or put them down. I have plenty of shortcomings of my own.
But you do--by no longer considering them viable--everything else about a woman might be perfect for you, but one moment changes everything in your head--and what i am saying to you is that if that is the worst that a woman might bring to you, then you should consider yourself lucky for having found her. TODAY this is how you feel--but I'm asking you to tuck away into the recesses of your construct the possibility that maybe the right woman for you won't be a virgin.
It's that I feel like the foundation I am looking for, to take such a drastic and radical plunge as marriage is, is to have a virgin bride.
I believe that that is the best hedge of my bet to avoid adultery, divorce, etc.
I'm not sure that is accurate. Many woman will want 'out' for the possibility of exploring another man. Women that marry young with their virginity intact complain that they've never been with another man and don't have anything to compare their lives to---a different sexual partner, a different man, a different father to her children....
Obviously there's no guarantee. But I believe that is the "correct" way to make the sacrament and institution of marriage function properly.
Today's "bride and groom both have 10-30 previous sexual partners, then in their mid 30s settle down with whoever they happen to be dating at that point" model doesn't really appeal nor work for me.
I disagree. I know lots of couples dating for long periods of time who never take the plunge of marriage by default.
I couldn't take myself seriously standing in church seeing my bride come out wearing white if that was the case.
Could you imagine a dynamic where you wouldn't be married in a church standing next to a woman wearing white? I know this is your dream...but what if the reality was different? Could you stop yourself from wanting to marry a woman that you loved and wanted to have children with if she were Jewish or Muslim? Would your commitment be different standing barefoot on beach in Hawaii? Could you be married in your home with a small amount of guests in attendance--but everyone who really mattered being there with a justice of the peace? What if she were Oriental but catholic and wore a red dress for good luck? Just like when I told Jenna that she could have that house down the shore if she wanted to badly enough; I'm not trying to convince you of anything other than to open your eyes to a world of possibility.
Maybe that's too hardcore or unreasonable for today, but we're being honest with each other in these dialogues.
"I know Jenna is special-- that's why I spent so much time with her. Jenna can have the kind of man and life that she deserves--she just doesn't have enough experience with good men, wealthy men, a man who could give her everything she could ever want."
What would be your ultimate desire for her, long term? Guy her age that treats her like gold but doesn't move her up socio-economic ladder? Older guy with money who maybe she doesn't connect as well with but will take care of her, her parents, etc. forever?
My wish for Jenna would be for her to be moved up the socio-economic ladder. Loving a man that is her age with nothing to offer her doesn't serve her best interests. The lack of artificial birth control with a man that rocks her puts her in the exact position her parents are in--lots of kids without the money to take care of them.
Obviously the ideal would be all of the above who is perfect, but does everyone eventually tip one way or the other when it comes to love verses money in a potential husband?
Sounds like you believe that first impressions are huge and that maybe its better to risk it all and go big or go home rather than being "nice" or "boring"?
I've consistently made bad first impressions in the past with girls because I honestly didn't care.
This time since I obviously did care, I tried to make a good one and it backfired. Funny how things play out.
The longing for companionship seems hardwired into most people. I haven't really felt that much beyond intellectually wanting to have my own family some day.
Hopefully I'll never know that longing.
I've never been emotionally hurt in a relationship sense but Ive seen it devastate some of my boys to the point where they're in their room by themselves not showering for days on end. I imagine its horrendous.
Really? If I don't kiss a woman, she'll assume he isn’t attracted regardless of his entire demeanor during the date? That seems a bit much.
Yes, a woman will think that somehow during the evening he changed her mind about her. you've probably never watched the reality show ‘the millionaire matchmaker’ but at the end of every fix up she asks the guys if he kissed his date..it’s sexual instinct...if you don’t kiss her, you get placed into the friend zone immediately.
She got to see me take my shirt off and fist fight other grown men before we even met. I got a picture and her background from what you told me.
I had to tell her something about you and I wasn't going to have her read the stuff that you wrote--at her core a woman always wants to be protected, showing you fighting was enough to see if she was attracted to you enough to want to explore the possibility of yes.
I see what you’re saying though. Being so cut and dry isn’t for everyone and takes the excitement out of it.
It makes your approach more of a business meeting then the fun of getting to explore someone.
I wouldn’t have been opposed to her asking the same amount of stuff back at me.
That is NOT a woman's job--in fact asking a man questions is coming to a dating relationship from the masculine--not the feminine. I don't ask men questions about themselves. It’s a woman's job on a date to just BE--not do--including asking questions of a man. A woman should never HAVE to pick up the slack to fill in the blanks of a conversation.
I know that it may seem foreign to you to think of a dating situation where you would be the one marketing yourself to interview for a position a woman's life, but that is exactly what you should be doing. I’ve seen men do it to me; I’ve advised women of that intent when they've heard it from other men--and those men ended up proposing to those women. Women who don’t understand this will tell you 'all he did was talk about himself'...he's supposed to...and gets to know HER over time. You haven’t been in love but once...so here is what I can tell you. That if you ask any man what it is about a woman that they love; or when was the moment that they fell in love, they can't tell you. Ask a woman those same questions and they can tell you what she wore, what he wore, what the temperature was and how the light shining....there's a reason for that....men fall in love with a woman's essence. It is absolutely nothing in particular, it’s everything about her. Very different experience for a woman....she can tell you specifically.
Frankly, I was surprised she wasn’t more curious about my intentions of asking you about her in the first place. I didn’t know how much you told her about me or what I was looking for.
I told her you staunchly catholic--which is a non-negotiable for both of you, looking for a wife--ready to settle down...
Do I understand you right that you think I should have talked myself up more when it comes to MMA, physical prowess, social dominance, etc? And she'd just have to take my word for it?
I’m not saying that the physical prowess is all you should have talked about, but yes, you should have--and yes, she would have taken you at your word because I showed her a fight you won--not lost. She was impressed by your Gregorian chant walk out music...it reminded her of old church that she attended when she was young and she really like it and talked to her younger brother about it asking him if he remembered. A man should be discussing his life. I’m going to send you a separate email that I once read written by a man for questions that a woman in a speed dating situation should be asking. It’s not that I’m recommending that a woman should be asking you this--but I’m sending them to you so that you should have some idea of what you should be bringing to the table to talk to a woman about. A little more reveal of who you are as a man...for a soul to soul interaction.
And this is all done from the start, before even building any sort of rapport or familiarity with each other? Mind-boggling.
YES this is from the very beginning--because if you don’t, you may not get another chance to do this--obviously. Never forget that when you date a woman you are on a job interview. You are interviewing for the job of her life mate and lover--hence the good night kiss. If you don’t show up prepared for the job interview, you've already failed it.
That sounds very cold. And far from the fantasy I’d have to think most young girls have.
You might think that sounds cold--but this is what NORMAL girls do. Do you honestly think that 17 year old Courtney Stodden is sexually attracted to the 51 year old man she just married? Granted I think she looks a lot older than 17--but here's a hot young girl crawling into bed every night with an old man—well-- old enough to be her father. Despite whatever fantasies he has of her being attracted to him, she married him for security.
What do you see as the downside of marrying "your best friend" who was an adequate provider?
There isn’t any sexual chemistry--and eventually it’s like living with your sibling--you don’t want to have a sexual relationship with them.
No longer viable to ME. Not period. My friends that are married are all married to non-virgins. I get along well with their wives and think highly of them.
That was my point--that they are no longer viable to you.
And I disagree that its "one moment". It’s usually a pattern of behavior reflecting on how they value relationships and themselves.
What I was asking you was to recognize is that there is a possibility of one moment of regret--and her realizing that it was a mistake and not wanting to put herself through that emotional pain again. There is a whole world of born again virgins, promise rings and coming back to God after being astray. It’s not always a pattern of 10-30 partners in a woman's life. You may be walking away from potentially a right woman for you.
I don’t think many serious Christian women think like that though…wanting a "variety" of men to try out. Perhaps in a private curiosity. But I’m looking for girls with accountability. I’m not going to lose sleep over not picking up groupies in Atlantic City if I find a tremendous girl.
Those women don’t feel that way before marriage but afterwards.
Men walk away and then later on realize their "favorite" is now off the table and they have to settle for someone else because of timing.
What I see far more is that men--for reasons you've mentioned-- walk away from a woman that they would have married only to settle for a lesser partner when it was their own doing that they walked away from the right woman. It wasn't timing, it was a choice those men made....let me give you a case and point. I know a guy named George. He’s a Greek guy. He fell hopelessly in love with a Jewish girl. His parents are anti-Semitic.
He didn't marry her--he married a Greek girl who his parents approved of. He hates that she's stupid in comparison and regrets that he didn't marry the Jewish girl 15 years ago. He thinks about the Jewish girl everyday--but because of not listening to his heart he let her slip away. That was my point to you--that it may very well turn out that the right woman for you is Jewish or Chinese or that she had sex ONCE with a boyfriend in a long term relationship--that her lovemaking with him was actually given out of love--and not some Atlantic City drunken blackout.
Or let’s say she planned on marrying him and he was killed in a car crash or armed services. And you’ve chosen let her go. What if no one you've ever met since compared to her and just because she wasn't a virgin you walked away. Could you live with your decision without regret? Could you live your life without never having been married--never having had children--waiting for the perfect virgin? Is that a risk you're willing to take even if it's forever?
I’m asking you to explore the worst case scenario instead of the best case and weigh your options...
I mean I don’t know the future..........I just don’t see many of those as realistic or likely.
I’m generally not big on the Burger King "have it your way" mentality when it comes to something like marriage. I see it more of a sacrament than just a legal thing.
Would you advise Jenna to trade her virginity and perhaps true love for an older guy with money who wasn't willing to wait?
I think that it is realistic for a man not to have waited. As well, I think that most women would prefer a man with some sexual acumen instead of a bumbling ineptness on their wedding night.
Seems to me like there's so many screwed up aspects of "the game" today. I always thought you just grow up and find a girl where you both "like each other" and after you take them to movies and buy them presents for a while, the two of you got married.
Everyone fumbles around until they get it right--you've learned some things--and that is what matters. Between us both—Jenna and I, she's left you ‘better’ than she found you…for the next woman to come into your life.
But for the record, I had long ago heard of testosterone being passed through a kiss from man to woman as a way to turn a woman's sexual desire up--so i just thought I'd give you a little reading material as to why you should be kissing on a first date....what i had read in the past is that by passing your testosterone through your saliva to a woman raises her sexual desire. I did a fast google search for you and came up with this:
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“Kissing is a mechanism for mate choice and mate assessment,” Helen Fisher, a Biological Anthropologist from Rutgers University here at the American Association for the Advancement of Science, said to a press conference crowded with science journalists hoping for a story or, perhaps, some advice.
Over 90 percent of human society engages in what, if you get right down to it, seems like a very strange thing to do: putting faces together and trading spit. But because it is so pervasive, scientists think there must be a good reason for it, some kind of evolutionary advantage. And humans aren’t alone in this ritual. Chimpanzees kiss, foxes and dogs lick each other’s faces, some birds tap their bills together, and elephants put their trunks in each other’s mouths.
Humans have been kissing for ages. “Many kisses, particularly in the Roman novels, are slobbery,” said Donald Lateiner of Ohio Wesleyan University in Delaware who studies the history of kissing. “Every time that the past is excavated at Pompeii, there is good a chance there will be some additional data on sexual customs, if not kissing.”
So what’s all the making out about? It may have to do with that elusive but essential ingredient to true love that we call chemistry. It turns out, it may not be that elusive after all. It may just actually be…chemistry.
Saliva is like a chemical cocktail, and hooking up may have evolved to help us quickly tell if someone is a good mate or not, Fisher said.
After all, haven’t we all been attracted to someone and then the first kiss just killed it? It might be because he didn’t have the right stuff in his spit. Lots of hormones are present in differing quantities in our saliva, and they may serve several romantic purposes.
“There’s evidence that saliva has testosterone in it, and there’s also evidence that men like sloppier kisses with more open mouth,” Fisher said. “That suggests to me that they are unconsciously trying to transfer testosterone to trigger the sex drive in women.”
This prompted one male reporter to ask, “Should I drool more when I kiss?”
“Are you suggesting men would be more successful if they passed more saliva?” he asked. “People will want to know that.”
After Fisher first mistook “drool” said with an English accent for “drill” and asked if it was some sort of British kissing technique, she dodged the question saying she’s not in the “should business,” about what you should or shouldn’t do.
But, she did offer the advice that “you don’t want to turn your partner off.”
And there may be more to this chemical assessment than just kissing, Fisher said. “I think kissing is the tip of the ice berg. I think we’ll find that all kinds of other chemical systems are in play that we don’t know about.”
Fisher says she has found from other scientists’ research and from her own analysis of statistics on 40,000 people on the dating Web site Chemistry.com that there are four dimensions of temperaments, or biologically based traits, and each is associated with different chemical systems in the brain: Dopamine is associated with traits like novelty seeking, risk taking, curiosity and creativity; serotonin was linked to calm, caution cooperation, loyalty, and tradition; testosterone with decisiveness and emotional containment; and estrogen lumped together with oxytocin was linked to nurturing, patience and social skills.
So Fisher devised a questionnaire and gave it to 28,000 people on Chemistry.com to see if how strongly people express each of these systems affects their partner choice.
“It now appears that we are drawn to people with particular biological profiles,” she said. And the kiss may be how we assess someone’s profile.
This drew the obvious question from a reporter: “Is it true that opposites attract?”
Well, that depends on the person, she said. Those adventurous ones who express dopamine strongly preferred people like themselves, and the same was true for the more traditional, serotonin expressers. But those high in testosterone preferred more estrogen and vice versa.
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One study found that 66 percent of women and 59 percent of men say that the quality of the first kiss can kill a relationship, Fisher said.
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Turns out scientists have a few ideas about why we love to suck face. Research scientist, Sheril Kirshenbaum explains in her book, “The Science of Kissing: What Our Lips Are Telling Us,” that the most important and obvious reason why we French kiss is to facilitate reproduction. It seems women use this mouth-to-mouth contact as a way to judge the taste of the tongue, lips and saliva to see if she is with an adequate mate. In a way, women can smell when a man’s immune system genes (called MHC) are matched well to her own. Kissing someone with too close an MHC complex might produce subconscious cues akin to kissing your brother or sister, good protection against inbreeding.
But what about the guys? No surprise here. To men, French kissing equals foreplay. Studies suggest that males pass along small amounts of testosterone through their saliva, priming their mate for sexual intercourse.
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BTW, I asked 4 different chicks I know about your "always try to kiss on the first date" claim.
All agreed with you, and elaborated extensively on the mindset and logistics involved. This one girl I talk to who lives in Cali said: "Yes you should always make a sexual or at least intimate gesture on 1st date. Saying you find it hard to keep your hands to yourself, then you can gauge her reaction and move in for a kiss at the end.
You must remember that although we are virgins or at least ladies, we are still sexual beings and love it when a man shows gentlemanly and sometimes aggressive behavior.
A kiss is reasonable and romantic whether its on the hand, cheek or lips. Every girl has different boundaries and its up to you to discover what she's comfortable with. She will admire your self control."
She is correct. Every woman needs to know that she is desirable. Even if she is reticent about handing over her virginity to you, she has to know that at your core you are a hunter and she is the prey which might be slayed at any moment. Every woman needs to know that she isn't 100% safe with a man--that at any second he might ravage her--that his desire for her is only tempered by his will.
I have much to learn.
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